When Hillary Clinton has lost Rachel Maddow on an issue, you know few people really believe her.

During a phone interview on MSNBC Monday night, Maddow confronted Clinton over the bizarre debate schedule created by the Democratic National Committee for the presidential candidates.

Clinton refused to take responsibility for the schedule that has been widely criticized for placing debates on weekends and at times that would likely generate smaller audiences.

“The sparse Democratic debate schedule this year when compared to the Republicans,” Maddow said to Clinton, “a lot of people in the political press have ascribed that to your campaign essentially wanting to have a lot profile and spare debate schedule.

“Now, looking back do you think it was a good decision? Is it true that your campaign advocated for a light schedule and particularly these debates being on TV Siberia on weekends and holidays?” Maddow asked.

“Well Rachel I don’t really have any knowledge of that,” Clinton responded. “I’m not saying nobody representing me or any of the other campaigns didn’t express an opinion.”

She added, “I’m not going to substitute my judgement for whatever the thought process was. And as to when they’ve been scheduled, I’m told is they were partnered with broadcast networks that wanted to provide the time and indeed for most broadcast networks Saturday or Sunday were preferable.”

But in fact, both of Clinton’s rivals — Bernie Sanders and Martin O’Malley — have both called for more debates.

“There are people throughout Iowa and New Hampshire who are outraged that the Democratic Party is trying to act in such an undemocratic way. So I think you will see more debates. I’m planning to go to as many debates as I possibly can,” O’Malley said in August.

He added, “What have we come to as a party that we are so poor that we can’t afford to have more than one debate in Iowa and one debate in New Hampshire before the primary.

“It’s outrageous and people in our own party aren’t going to stand for this sort of meddling and limiting of debate that the DNC is trying to engage in.

“I think most in the DNC think this is a really bad idea.”

Bernie Sanders has a petition on his campaign website calling for more debates.

I know, and you know, that the best chance for this country is discussing the issues that matter. Republicans aren’t going to do it, so we need more Democratic debates — more than the 4 scheduled by the DNC before the Iowa Caucuses.

And I know that if Secretary Clinton wants more debates, we’ll get them.

Sign my petition and tell Secretary Clinton to encourage the Democratic National Committee to schedule more debates before the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire primary in February and to allow important constituencies within the Democratic Party to host their own debates.

In September, Clinton refused to call for more debates.

Appearing on CNN, she said:

“Well Wolf, I have said from the very beginning, I look forward to debating, I look forward to the debate, uh, you know, next month, uh, you know, now, uh, just a month. And I will certainly show up anywhere that the Democratic, uh, National Committee, uh, tells us to show up because I want us to have a good exchange of ideas and to make sure Democratic voters first and then general voters, uh, to follow, to see exactly what we stand for, what our positions are, so, you know, I, I am, uh, ready and, uh, willing, uh, no matter, uh, what, uh, uh, they decide, uh, to show up and be there,” she responded.

For those keeping score, Clinton said “uh” 13 times in her non-answer.